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Note from Stephanie Relfe: David Icke does not believe in Jesus, and I understand that he does not even believe in God. It is my experience that, while much of his information is HIGHLY valuable, his book “The Biggest Secret” is a little too overwhelming for some people, not necessarily because the information is too hot to handle, but because at the same time that he gives people information which can cause fear, he takes away the very thing which gives many people freedom from fear, and that is their faith in and connection to God and/or Jesus. Most of his information is excellent. I recommend it, as long as this point is kept in mind.

David Icke has become a highly sought-after lecturer, worldwide, and it is no wonder. His books in recent years have covered the full range of topics concerning the so-called "elite" global controllers and their stranglehold on the masses.

His most recent book, titled “The Biggest Secret”, is his most daring work to date. To say that it takes on even more than its title suggests, is still quite an understatement.

On July 8, 1999, I caught up with David, by telephone, in London. While he was recovering from a prolonged bout with a flu bug, and we would have been thankful with just a short interview under the circumstances, I think you will agree with me that he was in fine form during this conversation.

David hits hard on a wide range of topics, some of which will, surely, stretch your beliefs and expand your thinking. This is, literally, a "fasten your seatbelts and hold on to your hat" kind of conversation which captures David's riveting speaking style as best that can be done in print.

If you do not read this interview with an open mind, you will probably just dismiss the entire thing. But as a careful reading of The Biggest Lie [Secret]will reveal, David has definitely done his homework-as usual!

As David told me, he has just done a month in Australia, New Zealand, Hong Kong, and America. He is now, as I write, in South Africa for a month, then back to America in September. He is confirmed in Seattle, Washington to speak at Washington State CTC from 10 a.m. to 5 p.m. on September 25; tickets for that event are available through Ticketmaster (206) 628-0888. His schedule for other events may be accessed through his website which is: { http://www/davidicke.com }. His very controversial video tape with Illuminati mind-control victim Arizona Wilder, is available from Bookworld and elsewhere, but for your convenience The SPECTRUM is also carrying this video Revelations of a Mother Goddess and his newest book The Biggest Secret ; see back page for ordering information. If you would like to contact David for a speaking engagement or conference, he may be reached by calling Royal Adams at 602-657-6992 or fax at 602-657-6994. British or European inquiries may be made at Bridge of Love ~ United Kingdom on 01983 566002. [ ~ Bridge of Love ~ Australia - Phone +61 7 3209 7902 FREECALL in Australia 1800 099 902 ~]

With all of that said, sit back and read the latest insights from a researcher who has dared to probe into the darkest corners and speak out on some areas that, to-date, seemingly no one, on a global scale, has been willing to touch. It is very appropriate that two of David's other books include: And The Truth Shall Set You Free and The Robot's Rebellion.

We are in a time when personal responsibility is the challenge affecting us all-big time! What if each of us simply made a resolution to follow the three suggestions David makes near the end of his conversation? Sometimes the simplest ideas to put into words are the hardest to truly carry out.

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Martin: I'm talking to you at the seat of global power today, namely London. Not only are you located at the seat of power, but there are many horrific and nasty things taking place behind the seemingly respectable old stone walls of those various places.

David Icke: Right, absolutely.

Martin: As our readers are very well versed on the Global Controllers generally, let's cut to the chase with the bad news first and go from there. What is The Biggest Secret, as your new book is so appropriately titled?

David Icke: The 'biggest secret' that's emerging is that back in the ancient world, we can debate when, but certainly you can pick it up around 5,000 B.C., a series of bloodlines emerged, particularly but not exclusively-particularly, really, the focus of power was in the Near and Middle East.

These bloodlines became the leaders and the Royal lines of that ancient Near and Middle Eastern area. This bloodline would appear to go back to an extra-terrestrial intervention which created hybrid bloodlines. This, I think, is referred to in the Old Testament which is, of course, just an edited rewrite of more ancient texts where it talks about the "sons of God" who interbred with the "daughters of men", creating the hybrid line, the Nefilim/Nephilim. When you go back to the Hebrew, the "sons of God" become the "sons of the gods". And so often when you see the translation into the English, the King James version of the Bible, as God in the Old Testament, it actually is translated from the word meaning gods.

And these bloodlines moved over as time went on and became the British and European Aristocracy and Royal Families. The incessant interbreeding between these family lines is not due to snobbery, but their desire to hold a specific genetic structure.

Thanks to-well, let's go back a little. The focus in the ancient world of these bloodlines appears to be in Babylon, and eventually they moved their epicenter to Rome. And it was when they were in Rome, epicentering in Rome, that we had the Great Roman Empire.

This was a key point in the historical expansion of the power of these bloodlines across the planet. Eventually, one of their number, called William of Orange, to whom every surviving Royal Family in Europe is related, was manipulated onto the throne of England in 1689, and he was the one who signed the Charter that created the Bank of England in 1694.

At that point, this group-call it the Illuminati, for want of a better word-these bloodlines, in other words, moved their epicenter at an operational level, because it has other levels all around the world, but at an operational level, the spider in the center of the pyramid became London. And then, of course, as years unfolded, came this key time in the expansion of these bloodlines, the Great British Empire, and as a result of that they were able to move into the Americas, Australia, Africa, and New Zealand. They show up as far as China.

It was said that the Sun never set on the British Empire. Well, when you see the size of Britain, compared with the world-when I was a kid it was a great mystery to me how these small islands you can hardly see on the globe actually had an empire that spanned the world. But now I do understand that it was not the British Empire at all, it was the empire of these bloodlines, that had centered themselves in Britain, which is a very different thing.

Now, what happened, it's increasingly becoming clear, is that these bloodlines then took the positions of power in these countries of the British Empire. But, there are two forms of power. There's overt power, dictatorship-you can see it, feel it, touch it and taste-and they always have a finite lif because eventually, when people know they're in a dictatorship, in a prison, they'll rebel against it. The most effective form of control, and this is what happened when the so-called European Empires, like the British Empire, started to roll-back, particularly in this century, they replaced overt in-your-face control with covert control.

And that is the ultimate control, because people do not rebel against not being free when they think they are. And so, what happened as these empires, as the British Empire, rolled-back on the surface, and of course, "Oh, the great British Empire is over, poor old Britain has lost her power", they actually left out in those countries the bloodlines and the secret society networks through which they work and they've gone on running those countries, including not least, in fact, most and emphatically, the United States, ever since it was formed.

And when you look at the genealogy of American Presidents, it is utterly astonishing in support of this. There are about 260 million Americans, at the moment. And if you add up all those who have called themselves American since 1776, it will run into hundreds and hundreds of millions. Well, 42 of those hundreds of millions have actually become President of the United States. You would think, on the law of averages alone, that those 42 would have some tremendous genetic diversity.


Well, they don't. According to Burke's Peerage, the bible of Aristocratic and Royal genealogy based in London, every American election since and including George Washington, in 1789, has been won by the candidate with the most European Royal genes. 33 of the 42 are genetically related to two people: Charlemagne (King), the most famous monarch of what we call France, and Alfred the Great, the King of England. They're the two countries, overwhelmingly, France and Britain, out of which these bloodlines came in Europe.

Now, since The Biggest Secret came out, and I told the story in there of how these bloodlines came out of the Near and Middle East, how the blueprint of control by religion was formed in Babylon, where their Trinity of Nimrod, Tammuz the Sun, and Queen Semiramis the female, there was mirror in terms of the stories of the later Jesus stories, and many other stories in other cultures that relate to exactly the same stories using different heros, since I wrote in the book that the Gospels were actually written by a Roman Aristocratic family called the Pisos, Piso. Since I wrote in the book that these stories were eventually taken and turned into a religion by, most notably, the Roman Empire, Emperor Constantine the Great, at the Council of Nicaea in 325 A.D., and, of course, what came out of that, eventually, was the Roman Church which became the Christian religion.

Since I wrote in the book that one of the key bloodlines that I am identifying is the Merovingian bloodline that came out of the Near and Middle East into France, and, of course, has been widely written about in various books in the recent ten years or so, since I noted that in the book that the British Royal Family, including King George III, were these bloodlines, since all of that, I have, in the last ten days come across the genealogy of the George Bush family, including, of course, George W. Bush, who, surprise, surprise, is being pushed as the year-2000 President.

It only turns out that the Bush family and the Roosevelt family, who are of the same line, are genetically related to Alexander the Great, who, I think it's around 300 B.C., plundered this very area-I'm talking about Egypt, what we call now Israel, down to Babylon and across to India-this whole area I'm talking about, the Bush family and the Roosevelt family are related to him, genetically.

They are related to the Piso family, the Roman aristocratic family who wrote the Gospel stories originally. They're genetically related to Constantine the Great, the Roman Emperor who took those stories and turned it into the Christian religion, in effect, which makes the people who wrote the stories and the person who created the religion, the same bloodline.

They're genetically related to Dagobert, one of the key Merovingian line. Dagobert was said to be one of the last surviving Merovingian line, but that's not correct. The Bush family is also genetically related to George III, who was around when people like Benjamin Franklin were giving the American people the impression they were going to freedom, when actually they were going to covert control by Britain, which they've had ever since.

So when you look-and this is just a few headlines from the Bush line-when you look at the Bush line alone it supports, emphatically, these bloodlines that came out of that ancient Near and Middle Eastern area and have been brought through to be in positions of power, not least today. It is no accident, Rick, that George W. Bush, with that background, genetically, is the one they're bringing through and throwing the money at to become president in the year 2000, which is a key year for them.

So, in effect, what I'm saying is that my research is very strongly pointing to the fact that the extraterrestrials are not coming, they're not going to invade, they've actually been controlling this planet, increasingly, for thousands of years. And when I say extraterrestrials, I don't mean all extraterrestrials, I mean I'm talking about this particular group. And it seems to me that the situation is this, that-oh, the House of Windsor, by the way, are one of these bloodlines, big-time, and they know it-they're related to the Bushs, not surprisingly.

Anyway, it seems that one of the key reasons that they are trying to hold this genetic structure is that this planet is actually controlled not from the physical level, which is just one level of it, but actually from what people call the lower astral, or I call the lower fourth dimension. It is the lower cess-pit end of the dimension closest to this one. And, it seems that, talking to people who have worked on the inside with these people and taken part in their rituals-indeed, in one case, conducted them-these lower fourth-dimensional entities who, of course, the satanic rituals interact with-the legendary realm of the folklore demons and all this stuff-that somehow, these particular genetic lines, in their most pure form, have a much greater vibrational reasonance and vibrational sympathy with the lower fourth dimension, and therefore, can be much more easily-what we would call-possessed and taken over by these lower fourth-dimensional entities, which kind of means that if you can put these particular bloodlines, the physical body, if you like, in a position of power, you're actually putting these lower fourth-dimensional entities into positions of power, because they're working through these particular lines.

And, again and again, when you get into the genealogy, my goodness me, that takes some time and sweat, you hit the same genetic lines when you're looking at people in positions of power. It seems to me that these lower fourth-dimensional entities have actually been working through what we call the Illuminati to actually control the planet. And, while all this was unfolding, I started getting some very bizarre stories told to me.

Martin: I bet.

David Icke: And the thing about my life, Rick, in the last 10 years or so, consciously walking this journey-I now realize that I was unconsciously doing it all of my life-is that suddenly a subject heading will come into my life, and once it's appeared, I'm meeting people literally from all over the world, because I've been in 21 countries in the last two years now, and been back to quite a few of them, so I can start to see, as a result of traveling, these common themes that are coming up all over the world.

And one theme that came up last year, May '98, it had been around a little bit but I put it on the back burner. There wasn't enough evidence to talk about it, really. And that was that people had seen people in positions of power, not exclusively so, but overwhelmingly so, turn into a reptilian form and then go back to human. And, in a period of 15 days, in May 1998, I met 12 separate people in different parts of America from different walks of life and different backgrounds, in my travels, who told me the same story. I thought, "What in the hell is going on here?!"

When I came back to England, the sequence continued. I was asked by a couple of people, who were members of the House of Lords, in London, to go and talk to them at the House of Lords about the manipulation, which they also realized was going on. And I chatted with them for a while, and there was a lady at the meeting who kept saying some very interesting things about Diana, you know, the Princess of Wales. And after the meeting, I said "Look, hey, we gotta talk."

She said, "We have." And we went off and chatted.

I said, "Where did you get this information about Diana?"

She said, "My best friend was her closest confidant on things she couldn't talk about to anyone else for nine years." Now, this lady has actually appeared in the press from time-to-time as being a close friend of Diana. Anyway, she said, "I think this lady might talk to you. She's never talked to anyone else."

So, I went to see her and her name was Christine Fitzgerald. She starts telling me about the connection, all of the treatment of Diana by the Windsors, which was utterly, utterly outrageous. I haven't talked to this lady Christine Fitzgerald about these bizarre stories I'm being told by people around the world. Then, as the conversation unfolded, she said, "Oh, do you know what Diana's nickname for the Windsors was?"

I said, "No, go on."

She said, "The lizards or the reptiles." And she said, "She used to say, in all seriousness, 'They are NOT human!'"

Christine Fitzgerald went on to tell me: "You know, the Windsors are a reptilian line, they're not human." And that "the British Royal Family, and its inter-linking bloodlines, are actually reptilian, they come from a reptilian extraterrestrial race."

And I'm thinking, "Bloody hell, not another one!"

And I came back here-about an hour and a half from London-my home is in England. I knew of a guy called Ted Heath, who was Prime Minister of Britain from '70-'74, and I knew that he was involved in some serious horrendous things, like sacrificing children, and all this stuff, because of people who had seen it. And, a lady I knew, who had contacted me, wanted to tell me about her experiences with Ted Heath, so I went to see her, not to talk about shape-shifting reptilians, but to talk about Ted Heath and satanic ritual involving the elite of Britain.

And, again, but just as a quick incidental-when you follow these bloodlines from the ancient world to the present day, this satanic ritual, human sacrifice and blood ritual, even using the same deities in the rituals, is a common and constant, unchanging theme. So, it would be very surprising if the elite today weren't into this, because these bloodlines always have been, just like Bush is into it and people like that. Anyway, I went to see this lady and she told me about her experiences with Heath and stuff.

In a place called Burnham Beeches, which is an area of forested land notorious for satanic ritual, among people who have studied these things, it just so happens that, although Burnham Beeches is on the outskirts of London, not far from Heathrow Airport, the place is actually owned by the City of London, the financial district which is the epicenter of this control.

I just finished me cup o' tea-you know how you do in her house-and I was just making my way to leave, after she told me this stuff, and I said to her, just to throw away a line as I left, I said, "You know, I'm having some bizare things happening to me at the moment." I said, "I keep meeting people who tell me that they've seen people shape-shift into bloody reptiles."

And, honestly, she grabbed her chest and she was gasping for breath like she was having a seizure.

"Oh, my God," she said, "I thought it was only me."

And she went on to tell me that she wasn't going to say that to me because she thought that even I would find that unbelievable. She said, "All that stuff I've told you about Heath and seeing him in the satanic rituals and all that stuff," she said, "I wasn't going to tell you what I also saw. He shape-shifted into a reptilian, during the ritual. What staggered me," she said, "is that none of the other participants were at all phased by it, as if it was a natural thing that always kind of happened."

This has gone on, Rick, to the present day. I was in Vancouver, speaking, and I met about 4 or 5 people who told me the same story, including a business woman, who is a real feet-on-the-ground, you know, power-dressing kind of 5,000 clients business woman. And she said she had this relationship with a guy who was Portuguese, and he just turned into a reptile in front of her.

I had just spoken at a financial conference about the manipulation of the world in the Bahamas, and two people there told me the same story. One told me how she was in a religious cult, and on one occasion, the cult leader changed into a reptile in front of her face.

And she said, what was most amazing is that he focused on her, and the others couldn't see it, but she could, and she said she just went out of the room and started driving and never stopped, really.

You know, this is now hundreds and hundreds of people who I've met from around the world, from many walks of life-a couple of television presenters who interviewed this guy live and, when they went back in the green room one said, "I had a very strange experience during that interview. The guy's face turned into a bloody reptile."

"Oh, my God," said the other, "I saw his hands turn into a reptilian."

And so this is-then you look, of course, at the ancient world, and you start to see constant references to serpents and the serpent race. Not that all references are literal-I mean, there's the serpent symbolism that's used massively-but when you get, like, the Nagas, the gods of the ancient Hindu religion, who were said to be able to take human OR reptilian form.

And then, while this is going on, Rick, I thought, "I'm sure Cathy O'Brien mentioned bloody reptiles in her candid and shocking book, with Mark Phillips, called Trance-formation Of America."

Martin: Yes.

David Icke: I got a copy of that, started flipping through the index, looking for reptiles, thinking, "My life is getting more bizarre by the minute."

Martin: (Laughter)

David Icke: And, I'm going through the references in the book and, of course, Cathy talks in the book about being with George Bush and that George Bush-and she obviously took this to be part of the mind control, she took it to be a holographic image, it was part of the mind control-but when you put this other evidence together, well, hold on a minute.

She talks about being with George Bush, and him saying that they were an extraterrestrial race that came from a "far off space place" who'd taken over the world, and no one realized it because they look human. But, she said, he changed in front of her into a reptile. She talked about being with the Bennett brothers, these politicians, political figures in America, and how they put her through a mind-control program in which they said they came from another dimension and they were inter-dimensional beings.

And she had an experience during that time of seeing a White House cocktail party where everyone turned into bloody reptiles. And then she talks in the book about being withMiguel De La Madrid, in Mexico, who was, of course, President during the Bush years, and how he told her, she said in the book, the story of the Iguana race. And, Miguel De La Madrid said that an extraterrestrial reptilian race had interbred with the ancient Mexican people because they needed to create bloodlines or bodies they could work through, and these particular bloodlines could take either human or reptilian form. She says in the book that he actually shape-shifted, not totally, but facially, into a reptilian form when she was with him.

Now, when you start putting all of this together, Rick-I have simple philosophy-I follow information, and I'll go where it takes me. If you come from, anyone comes from, any belief or background, whether it be religious, political, or whatever, and they are rigid with it, then they're never going to uncover what's going on because that belief, that rigid belief, will start to edit information when it comes toward you, and you start editing-out information that's taking you away and challenging your original belief-system.

I haven't got any of that stuff, fortunately, and so I just follow information, and it's taken me into these areas. Interestingly, too-and I'm just going back there, so I'm going to do some more on this-when I was in South Africa, about February last year, I met a Zulu shaman, a famous Zulu shaman in South Africa. I met with him for about five hours about various things.

He knew about the elite and the manipulation and the extraterrestrial connection, and all this stuff. He's in his 70s now, I mean, he's lived a long time in Africa, and is a very great expert on African legend and stories and experience. And he told me, during this chat, that he got a call in March of 1997-this is before the August when Diana died-and this caller said that she was the Princess of Wales and wanted to talk to him.

Now, he didn't believe this, at first, and he certainly didn't believe it when she said to him that she was calling him from what, he termed, a supermarket phone. "Princesses don't call from supermarket phones," he thought.

Well, when I talked to Christine Fitzgerald about two months later, her confidant, she said, "That makes absolute sense, because Diana knew that her phones at Kensington Palace were tapped, and when she wanted a clean line, she used to go into a local department store," to what this shaman would have been a supermarket, "to use the public phone to get a clean line."

This shaman told me-and he later realized they had a connection, one of his students was a relative of Diana-and, interestingly, this shaman talks a lot about extraterrestrial connections with humanity and his own extraterrestrial experiences, of which he has had some astonishing ones.

Anyway, she said to him that she wanted to talk to him because she had something to reveal about the Windsors that would shake the world and she wanted advice in how best to do it. (Note from Stephanie Relfe: Is this why they murdered her?). And, talking to a lady who I met after Christine Fitzgerald, a lady called Arizona Wilder, who claims to have conducted rituals for the British Royal Family, that Diana knew that they were actually shape-shifting reptilians who shape-shifted during the rituals and, I said to this shaman, "What was it she wanted to reveal about the Windsors?" And he said, "I can't tell you, it's just too terrible. I don't want to get into any more trouble."

So, I said I knew that Diana knew that the Windsors were involved in the global drug-running operation and she knew that they were involved in that. And he just shook his head.

He said, "Oh, no." He said, "It was much worse than that."

And I'm going back there soon, so I'm going to have another go at finding exactly what it was.

But this Arizona Wilder lady, again, came on the scene after Christine Fitzgerald. I found her in Los Angeles, or near Los Angeles, and I went to see her, not to talk about shape-shifting reptilians, yet again, because I wasn't talking about it at the time; I was just gathering information. I went to talk to her about the rituals she said she conducted for the British Royal Family, and the Bushs, the Kissingers, and people like that in America.

Because Arizona Wilder, even though she's got red hair today, is actually blond haired, with piercing blue eyes. And the blond-haired, blue-eyed thing is fundamentally involved in all of this stuff, and what have you. Anyway, that is why Project Monarch is overwhelmingly, if not exclusively, blond-haired, blue-eyed people.

I went to talk to her about the rituals that she says she conducted. So, we're getting into this stuff, and she's telling me about the rituals at Balmoral in which, you know, human sacrifice takes place in Scottland, the Queen's Palace in Scotland, and also at Glames Castle and the Castle of Darkness, as it's called, in Belgium, which Fritz Springmeier and Cisco Wheeler talk about in their book. And I had heard all of this from other sources, I mean, Christine Fitzgerald was talking about the stuff they got up to, but then, as the conversation unfolded, Arizona said to me: "But that's not the most bizarre thing that happened."

And I thought, "Well, how much more bizarre can you get, the Queen of England sacrificing children?" And, she said, when the blood started to flow, they shape-shifted into reptiles.

And, in their reptilian form, they're very, very different-I mean, like, the Queen Mother, this sounds funny, really-but the Queen Mother is an old frail 99-year-old, but that's the physical form in three-dimensional reality. But it's not the physical form of the reptilian that's working through her, according to these people.

And I got a call from a lady in America who is the head of Parents Against Ritual Abuse. And I was talking to her, again, not about shape-shifting reptilians, but about the ritual abuse of children in America, and she said during this conversation, "Do you know, about 12 of my clients have actually reported that, during the rituals, they've seen the participants turn into reptiles." And, she said, "I've always taken it to be that they're dressing up to confuse them."

But when you take all of this together, Rick, all this emerging information, and since I've gone public on it, obviously, in the book, you start to attract people who know they can talk to you, because, you know, the thing that keeps this quiet most of the time is that people who know things and have seen things think, "Well, who's going to believe me?"

And, interestingly-and this is a true story also, and it kind of sums up the way this has been unfolding-when The Biggest Secret was at the printers in January, I got a call in America from a guy, he was just a guy who read my other books, and he said, "Hey, you got a new book coming out?"

I said, "Yeah, it's at the printers now."

He said, "What's it about?"

I said, "Well, you'll have to read it because some of it is so bizarre, if I told you about it, well, you'd think this is crazy."

So anyway, we go on chatting about what you do and where you've been and all this stuff. So then, after about ten or fifteen minutes into this conversation, he says, "Hey, you're going to think I'm mad," he said, "but have you ever come across anyone who has seen people in positions of power, like Bush, Gorbachev, Kissinger, turn into reptiles?"

I thought, "Shit, not another!"

I said, "Well, why do you ask the question?"

He said, "Because I keep seeing this." He said, "When they come on the television, I keep seeing them turn into reptiles."

So, the story has gone on-interestingly, too! I can't remember the exact word now, but I was interviewed on a radio station by the guy who does reverse speech. Have you come across that?

Martin: Yes, I have.

David Icke: Well, he wanted to talk to me about some reverse speech they'd taken from a guy Ken Bacon-do you remember the guy who was the Pentagon spokesman, or White House spokesman-Pentagon spokesman, I think, during the Kosovo war, and they had done some reverse speech on him and said, "Do you know what this means? We can't work it out."

And it was clear as day. He was making a statement about the war to the press, and in reverse it said something like, "We are the people of the snake and we"-something like, I can't remember the exact wording now, I've got it on tape in America, basically-"we are the people of the snake and we look after our own" was basically the theme of what he said, clear as day, and I nearly dropped off the chair.

So,there is something in all of this which holds the key to understanding so much about how the world has been controlled, where this world is actually controlled from, and I would strongly suggest that what we are looking at with the Kissingers and the Bushs and the Rockefellers and the Rothschilds and all these people, are actually the three-dimensional, physical expressions of a lower-fourth-dimensional consciousness and manipulation. And the physical Illuminati are merely the three-dimensional expression of the fourth-dimensional control of planet Earth.

And, interestingly too, when you go back and back and back, and you follow how the White race came out of the Near and Middle East, with these bloodlines within them, and you pick up one of those White races called the Phoenicians-they actually worshipped a guy called, one of their dieties was called, St. George, in Cappadocia, who they said defeated the dragon. And because the Phoenicians actually went around 3,000 B.C. to Britain and took what we now call the British culture-which, indeed, in various forms has become the world culture-St. George in Cappadocia (Cappadocia is in what we now call Turkey) became St. George of Britain.

And another deity that the Phoenicians worshipped and took to Britain was St. Michael, who, it was said, of course, threw the serpent into the abyss-or threw the serpent onto the Earth for the final battle and all this stuff. This battling-with-serpents stuff goes on and on.

The other thing that I'm connecting in The Biggest Secret-and more and more people are beginning to do this-is the connection between the Earth and Mars, because it seems to me that the cataclysms which destroyed so much of the Earth, which the geological record, as well as the ancient legends and accounts talk about, the massive cataclysms, probably one that destroyed what became known as Atlantis and there were later ones, too, were the same cause of that cataclysm, some renegade or out-of-control celestial body of some kind actually destroyed Mars. I'm just reading books about compilations of the evidence that's been gathered about Mars, and there is tremendous evidence that Mars was actually a planet with an atmosphere very much like the Earth's, in the very near past, certainly the last 20,000 years, even 10,000 years, possibly. And, I think there was a tremendous connection between a civilization on Mars and the Earth, and when this cataclysm destroyed Mars, the surviving "Martian" people, who could-well, I suggest, be what we call the White race today, genetically-actually came and settled here and re-emerged, eventually, as the Sumerian culture, the Egyptian culture, and those great civilizations of the ancient world.

Interestingly, the connections between their symbolism, their deities, their legends, and the planet Mars are absolutely extraordinary. So, there is something big-time to look at there.

And what Arizona Wilder has said, in that in her preparation and training to conduct the rituals, because she was obviously a Cathy O'Brien-type, multiple-personality-created-robot to do these rituals, she said, what she was told by the insiders during her training was that the White race and this reptilian race have actually been at war with each other for a long, long time, not just on planet Earth. And that somehow the reptilians want more than anything the blond-haired, blue-eyed genetic stream because there's something in the blood that they want.

She also suggests-I don't know if this is true, I'm just quoting her-that the desperate need to conduct rituals and drink human blood, particularly blond-haired, blue-eyed blood, is because there's something in there that they want, is actually part of their need to hold this human three-dimensional form, through which they can operate from the fourth dimension. And if they don't get this blood, then they genetically start to fall-apart, in terms of the three-dimensional, apparently, human form.

Whether that's true or whether it's not true, and obviously I don't know that, when you look at totally unconnected sources who talk about the involvement of the elite in these rituals, and stuff like that, they say again and again, that some of the most famous people in American politics, business, banking, and Britain too, like the Royal Family, are actually addicted to blood-drinking, and particularly addicted to an adrenaline that enters the blood at the point of sacrifice.

And it's like a theme, like I say, which you can follow back with these bloodlines, right back to the ancient world. And when I talk to therapists around the world who work with satanically abused people, those who survived, trying to give them their minds back, they tell me that the deities their clients tell them are used in these rituals today are exactly the same deities that the Babylonians were using and the Cainites were using and the Phoenicians were using, right back in the ancient world.

So, The Biggest Secret for me, in summary, is that an extraterrestrial race has interbred with humanity, creating particular hybrid bloodlines which they can work through from this dimension very close to ours, and that as it expanded over the thousands and hundreds of years to the present day, they've managed to expand their power out of a power base in the Near and Middle East, other places too but particularly there, until today they are actually in control of the planet.

And it is the ultimate control because they're controlling the planet from another dimension, but most of humanity doesn't even think that there are other dimensions. And this suppression of knowledge about other dimensions, the suppression of knowledge of the nature of life, the nature of frequencies and vibrations, and the eternal nature of consciousness, for reasons that this Illuminati has created religions to suppress-indeed, make so off-limits for many thousands of years just talking about these things-is to suppress the very knowledge or even perception that there could be any other dimension or any other levels of life, which means that they can go on controlling humanity from levels of existence that most of humanity doesn't even accept exist. I mean, you can't get better forms of control than that.

Martin: Ok. A couple of questions come to mind from what you've just said. One, which is not a question that I would particularly ask, but I'm sure other readers might: Have you encountered any credibility issues since you have gotten into the reptilian subject?

And then, after you cover that: Obviously there is a Divine Hand overseeing the entire planetary transition. What would you say to those readers who despair over the apparent hopelessness at the hands of these elite controllers?

Icke: Right, well, yeah, that's a big question. First of all, let's answer the credibility thing. Let's make very clear where I'm coming from. First of all, I really do not give a shit what anyone thinks of me and what I do. What I care passionately about is trying to uncover what's going on so that it can be stopped and changed, and I care passionately about everyone having the right to hear all information and not just that which will lead us to a certain limited conclusion. I am completely emotionally detached from how people receive what I do, because if I wasn't, you'd just go crazy.

People have a right to believe whatever they want to believe, and that includes the right to dismiss whatever I say. I don't have a problem with that. I have a problem with thesuppression of the communication of information. So, how people receive it is completely up to them, and it's their absolute right to accept it, accept a bit of it, or just dismiss the lot. That's up to them. So, I don't have a problem with that, it's of no importance to me how people receive it. It's important to me that they have the right to have access to it.

On the other side of it, however, I would say this: I've spoken all around the world about this, and The Biggest Secret has now been out for a few months. I mean, you know, we're now into 30,000 print-runs on this book. I mean, it's extraordinary, the interest in it. And, what has staggered me is that I've actually stood up on public stages all over the world and talked about this, and the reaction, while it has been one of astonishment to start with, it actually makes sense to incredible numbers of people when they sit long enough to hear the evidence. Because I'm not standing up there and asserting this is what's going on, that's what's going on. I'm saying this is the information, this is what people are experiencing, look at the support of it in the ancient world. There is a case to answer here, something is going on.

So, the way it has been received has been staggering. What I find disappointing-it doesn't really matter to me, but I find disappointing because of it's effect-is the way that some conspiracy researchers, who are always saying that there's suppressed information and all this stuff, actually want to suppress the information I'm presenting that they don't like as well.

Martin: Right.

David Icke: It's extraordinary. I mean, people talk about freedom, Rick, and yet they don't understand what it is. So often, when I talk to people about freedom and they say, "Yeah want freedom." If you talk to them long enough, you find that they don't actually want freedom. They want the freedom to replace an imposition they don't like with an imposition they do!

You know, this is when you get the Christian Patriot Movement, of which I have great sympathy in the way that they are trying to expose some levels of the conspiracy, but you know, I don't see much of a difference between an imposed culture and imposed thought through the Illuminati being replaced by an imposed thought through "one nation under God". Because when you say, "Well, whose God are we talking about here?" Their's, of course, is the Christian version of God. That's no more freedom than anything else. So, I find it sad that, even though "divide and rule" is actually the foundation of all control by the few of the many, throughout human history, without it you couldn't do it, that conspiracy researchers and people in some of the religions still fall for this scam of divide and rule.

So, actually, some of the most fierce abuse that I've had since the book came out has not been from the public, actually, it's been from some other conspiracy researchers who can't get their head around anything beyond the physical. You know, be my guest. But surely whether we agree with each other or not, what a boring world if we did agree with everything we all said. Surely if we're going to get to the heart of this, we need to focus on what we're all agreed on, which is the need to expose that this world is controlled.

Now, I might have a certain view, based on the information that I've uncovered, of who is controlling it and all that stuff, but let's say, "Well, I don't agree with you on that, I can't get my head around that, I haven't done that research anyway, so I don't know." But let's agree on what we agree on, and let's go together, united, behind the desire for freedom in the world. But instead of that, once somebody writes anything or says anything that's different, to even the conspiracy norm, because that norm has now started to emerge, another bloody prison, then other conspiracy researchers start laying-into and abusing each other. I mean, some of the stuff that goes around on the Internet with conspiracy people abusing each other, I mean, I reach for the sick-bag. I mean, the statement that "a few can't control the world" is a piece of cake to knock down.

But the third point that you make is a very, very important one because this is a whole area of research and understanding which I'm now moving deeper and deeper into. We are multi-dimensional beings. We have part of our consciousness working directly through the physical form, in three-dimensional embodiment, in three-dimensional awareness, but we exist on all other dimensions. In the end, we are everything. You know, everyone is the same energy consciousness, we are everything in the end.

There's only an "I", not even a "we", when you get to the highest level of all this. But, I've actually talked about this in bits and pieces in previous books, but I'm beginning to understand this more and more, now.

I suggested in And The Truth Shall Set You Free that we could well be living inside a vibrational prison, that somehow a vibrational net had been thrown around this third dimension which made it very, very difficult for three-dimensional embodied consciousness-if you like, the consciousness that's looking through the eyes and hearing through the ears-to connect with its multi-dimensional self.

And it seems to me that this lower fourth-dimensional level, that this elite-controllers group works on, and I want to emphasize this, Rick, very, very strongly-when I talk about reptilians, I am not talking about all reptilians. Just as when we talk about the Illuminati, we're not talking about people in physical form. I'm talking about a particular group. I'm sure the reptilian form is a massive constant across great chunks of this galaxy and beyond, and I'm certainly not saying that anyone in reptilian form-any time anyone sees anyone in reptilian form, and there are a lot of people who do-and say, "I didn't get bad vibes from them."

Quite right, because we're not talking about ALL reptilians, we're talking a group that appears to take a reptilian form because that's how people keep seeing these people in power.

So, I would emphasize that very strongly because we don't want to get into this "good guys/bad guys" crap or we lose the plot again. The truth is never black or white; it's always a shade a gray, it seems to me.

What I'm beginning to more and more understand is that this lower fourth-dimensional level that this group operates from, this "Illuminati consciousness"-we'll put it like that-is the frequency range that vibrates to the emotions of fear and the off-shoots of fear, like guilt, resentment, aggression, all these things. And, therefore, the more that events can be created on the Earth which generate-my goodness me, they do by the minute-the emotions of fear, guilt, resentment, etc., within the human form, we are actually turned into generators of energy for that lower fourth-dimensional frequency range, if you follow me.

Because every time we feel emotion, the emotion of fear, our thought-emotional patterns are resonating energy around us and within us to that frequency of fear, which appears to relate very strongly to this lower fourth-dimensional level.

Now, where experiments have been done-I think the Institutef HeartMath in America has done a lot of this; it's got an Internet site, it's very interesting-they've done experiments measuring the frequency of various emotions, and they've shown that the frequency of fear is very low, slow. And when we're feeling fear, it is actually reasonating our energy very slowly. When we feel the emotion of what we call love, in it's truest sense, that is a very fast frequency which actually reasonates our energy very quickly. It's like waves going through and resonating the energy, which is just neutral. I mean, thought reasonates the energy. Do you want it fast? Do you want it slow? What were you thinking? What were you feeling?

So the more-this is vital to understanding this on a higher level, I would suggest-the more that humanity lives it's life in fear and the off-shoot emotions that come from fear, the slower the vibrational reasonance of consciousness working directly through the physical form. If the highest expression of ourselves, beyond this lower fourth-dimensional "cess-pit" vibration, as I call it, is operating at a higher wavelength than fear, and ultimately at the wavelength of love, what I would suggest is the highest wavelength of all-just like Radio America cannot sync with Radio Philadelphia because they are on different wavelengths-the wavelength of fear cannot sync with the higher wavelengths of love and other states of being.

So, in essence, as long as humanity can-in physical embodiment, that level of our consciousness-be kept and immersed in the emotion of fear, we actually vibrationally disconnect and can do nothing else, can do nothing other than disconnect from the highest expressions of who we are. We can't do anything other than that.

So, coming to the question, Rick, and it's a very important one, "How do we get out of here?" and "Where are the good guys?"-I keep hearing, "Where are the people coming to help us?"

Well, those of an emotional-mental state of being that wish to set-not in embodiment, I mean other-dimensional beings-who are of an intent to set the planet free, they are of a level of vibrational reasonance, as a result of that state of being, in which they cannot connect with consciousness that is in a state of fear. It simply cannot happen because there is a vibrational gap between the two. This is the vital point I would suggest, anyway.

It's not that those of higher-dimensional consciousness who wish to set us free have to connect with us; it's that we, in fear, have need to connect with them. And the only way of doing that is through breaking out of fear; it's breaking out of the three-dimensional illusion, the movie screen, the holographic kind of virtual reality game that we're looking at when we open our eyes, and getting into the wavelength of love, in it's true sense.

Because when we start to vibrate as a result of that state of being, to the energy of love, and our intent is freedom for all, not just ourselves, freedom in its true sense-freedom for you to say what I don't agree with, freedom for you to live your life-style in a way that I wouldn't live mine-that level of true freedom, that I will stand for your freedom to say something that I disagree with as much as I'll stand for mine to say what I think-when you hit that level, then your state of being starts to vibrate faster and faster, and starts to reach through this vibrational prison of low-vibrational emotion, fear overwhelmingly, and reconnect with the higher dimensions of ourselves; we start to become whole again.

Then we become lights or beacons that can bring this higher-dimensional knowledge/consciousness/understanding into embodiment and start to become like broadcast transmitters of it, which starts to reasonate and change the energy field that we're living in, and starts to break-up this fear-based energy field that we've been living in all this time-and have been manipulated to add to every time we think and feel fear.

So, again, it's about responsibility BY ME. It's not about saying, "Come and save us!" It's about saying, "How do we connect with those who can guide us out of this abyss?"

What if this abyss is actually a lower vibrational energy field caused by the overwhelmingly dominating fear emotion on planet Earth. We have actually feared ourselves into a low vibrational state, which has put us into a vibrational prison controlled from this lower fourth dimension, which is expert at manipulating fear because that is the vibration of it's being.

And if we could just turn that around and start resonating-by our own actions and our own thoughts and our own state of being-to the emotion of love, which is not "I love you darling because I saw you in the disco." Love is the ultimate power because it will speak it's truth and walk it's talk and do what it believes to be right, no matter what the consequences to itself. That's the kind of love I'm talking about.

Because love has no fear-the emotion that actually takes our power away-so love without fear must be the ultimate power.

If we can get into that state, we start to reconnect with those levels. So we say, "Where are they?" Well, they're sitting around waiting for us to connect with them, but WE have to make the connection. Otherwise these other higher dimensions, that are seeking to help us and of which we are a part, would have to come into the wavelength of fear to connect with us-which would actually defeat the object of the whole thing.

Martin: You continually use the term "problem, reaction, solution". For those readers who are not aware what that is, would you explain?

David Icke: It's the most powerful mass-manipulation technique that has been used over thousands of years to advance this agenda to central, globalized control of all institutions of our lives. Kosovo, Bosnia, all of these different manipulated wars and problems-the Oklahoma City bombing, people going crazy with guns around the world, in schools and stuff, these are classic expressions of this.

If you want to introduce something like gun control, I think on gun control we got manipulated into the wrong debate. Whether guns are good, or whether guns are bad is actually a debate worth having, but it's not the crucial debate at this moment because what's happened by pulling us into this debate of "are guns good or are guns bad?" is that it has actually diverted people from the debate which we should actually be having in light of these events-which is why we have this pattern all over the world.

Because I travel a lot, I tell you, it's happening everywhere, people going crazy with guns, shooting people in the streets or schools, and then immediately legislation being proposed to take guns out of circulation. People should remember that gun laws were introduced in Germany just before Hitler started filling concentration camps.

I don't have guns. I wouldn't use guns. I'm not into guns. I don't see the point in meeting violence with violence because you get twice the violence. But we need to get street wise. Some people would use guns, and on the face of it, it will be easier to take over an unarmed population than an armed population, on the face of it. That's not actually true, but on the face of it that appears to be true. And, therefore, what better than taking guns out of circulation before you've had your final coup, if you like. So, "problem, reaction, solution" overcomes the situation in which, if you introduced what you want to introduce, openly, then you know that it would be so unpopular that you would get tremendous resistance to it.

For instance, if you wanted to give more power to the police, more power to the military, more power to stop and search, more power to go into your homes without permission, etc., and you did that openly without any of this other incentive-manipulation, there'd be tremendous resistance from people who say, "This is a global, fascist state!" or "This is a fascist country! You mustn't do this; we're not having it!"

So "problem, reaction, solution" overcomes this. It's a brilliant technique, very simple, and it means that not only do you avoid such opposition, you actually manipulate people who would normally oppose what you want, to see it as the only solution to the problems that have been created and demand you introduce it.

So, in Stage One, you create a problem. You make sure, however, someone else is blamed for it-a Timothy McVeigh, a Lee Harvey Oswald, President Milosevic, and all this stuff-you create a problem.

You could create a war, as in Bosnia or Kosovo, you could create a "terrorist" bombing, a government collapse, an economic collapse, or whatever, a run on Wall Street, anything.

You then get your problem, which you've covertly created, to be reported through your media in the way you want the people to perceive it.

So, you report the Oklahoma City bombing as if it was due to a couple of guys in a barn somewhere who produced this fuel-fertilizer device which, of course, independent bomb experts have said couldn't possibly have caused that damage in the building.

You then glean, as a result of this, the demand that "something must be done!" "What are they going to do about it?" "We can't have this; do something!"

And so you've now had Stage One-create the problem.

And you've also, at this point, had Stage Two-the public reaction: "Do something!"

That allows you to play out the sting operation, called Stage Three, which is offering the "solutions" you wanted to impose in the first place, to the problems you have yourself created.

So, if you take the Oklahoma City bombing for instance, within 24 hours of the event at the James P. Murrah federal building on April 19, 1995, you had Bill Clinton calling for an easing of restrictions on the military's involvement in domestic law enforcement.

The Anti-Terrorism Bill, that went through Congress on the nod and took away basic freedoms in America, went through purely and totally because of the Oklahoma City bombing and as a reaction-solution to that problem.

The more deeply you look into these events which are blamed on other people, the more clear it becomes that the people who proposed the legislation, afterwards, are the people who created the problem in the first place. And this is going on all the time.

We've just seen a massive example of this. I've been writing in my books, and many other people have been too, that NATO is designed to become the world police force, in some form, maybe not even called NATO when it reaches that point, but certainly NATO is the vehicle through which the global police force is being orchestrated.

In Bosnia, the First Stage of this, you had the UN peacekeeping operation as the status quo at the start of it. But that was massively exposed, on purpose, in a co-ordinated way as being next to useless. At the same time, horrific pictures were pouring through our television screens night after night, of horrors in Bosnia. This, of course, led to calls-as a result of this problem "something must be done!"

And the solution was a 60,000-strong world army, under NATO control, that took over in Bosnia. And, as I've shown in my books and talks, every major peace negotiator appointed by the UN or the European Union to end the war in Bosnia-but no, they didn't, of course-was a member of the Bilderberg Group, the Trilateral Commission, and the Council on Foreign Relations, sometimes all three.

Then, as a result of Bosnia, the status quo was changed from reacting to these events with a UN peacekeeping operation, to reacting to them with NATO. So when they play Stage Two of this game, and that's all it is, this is not the end of it, Kosovo-there was no talk of UN peacekeeping operations-straight away, the status quo was NATO reacting to Kosovo. And if people only looked at it, it's just a mirror of Bosnia because there were no pictures.

I'm not saying Milosevic is a nice man, but I want to know who's actually controlling him, and who's controlling the Kosovo Liberation Army, etc., and all these various groups in this conflict. And I'm absolutely in no doubt that if you did the research, you'd find that the people who control NATO are the same people controlling Milosevic, the same people controlling the Kosovo Liberation Army, etc., because you need to control different sides in a game to insure certainty that the outcome is the one that you want it to be.

It was interesting that one of Milosevic's advisors during the Bosnian conflict was one of the key advisers, a few years earlier, to Margaret Thatcher-just a coincidence, nothing to worry about.

So we have these horrendous pictures coming out of Kosovo of these refugees pouring across the border and people forget that those pictures only started after the NATO bombing. And the NATO bombing actually massively, massively expanded the problem while claiming to be the solution. And what you have now, of course, is what they wanted all along, which is ground troops in Kosovo, and now they've got control of Kosovo and that whole area.

We're going to see Stage Two. I would say to people: watch the Chinese hierarchy very carefully because people who I trust, indeed, people who have been working on the inside for many years, tell me again and again, there's a China card waiting to be played as part of the process of creating a conflict big enough to turn, in one conflict, NATO into a world army to stop any more conflicts of this kind.

When you have the millennium mentality building up of "Come on, we've come to the end of a millennium. Look at the horrors of this millennium; let's start again", you have a global mentality that is very open to change, and there's nothing wrong with that except that if you control the forces of communication to the global mass-mind, you can control and manipulate what is perceived to be positive change, when actually it is only change that relates to the agenda that you want to introduce.

I actually wrote in The Biggest Secret about keeping an eye on China and the China card, and the next thing I know they've bombed the Chinese Embassy. Not only that, I think it was Time magazine, about three weeks ago or so, did a virtual whole edition demonizing China as the new monster and danger to the world. So I think we're going to see something like that unfold, and it will all be part of this recurring daily technique which happens in the local area, in the states, in the country, and in the world, of creating problems and offering the solutions to the problems.

It is the key technique. If people would only get street-wise to this, they would start to see presidential announcements and terrorist bombs and wars in a very, very different light.

I would just end the answer by saying this: The key question to ask in this situation, I would suggest, is: Who benefits? Who benefits from this Oklahoma City bombing? Who benefits from the wars? And who benefits from me believing the version of these events that I'm being asked to accept? And, again and again, when you ask that question of who benefits, the answer is, invariably, anyone who wants to further central power.

Martin: What is "The Agenda" that you refer to in your new book?

David Icke: When you're getting into the lower fourth dimension and this level of it, I'm still trying to understand more and more clearly what the overall agenda is. It seems that, somehow, this lower fourth-dimensional consciousness, entities, whatever you want to call them, have actually caught themselves in a prison. They're in the lower fourth dimension because they are resonating to that frequency because of their state of being. They're into control, they're into manipulation of fear, and anyone who manipulates fear is, themselves, entrapped in fear. And as a result of that, they cannot get out of that frequency range by going upwards, because you can only do that by changing your mental and emotional state which leads to your vibrational frequency increasing, which allows you to gravitate to higher levels.

It could well be-and I'm certainly being led in this direction at the moment-that they are trying to get out of that lower fourth dimension, or expand out of it, by coming into the third dimension and working and controlling three dimensionally. Certainly, even if you only take a three-dimensional level, the agenda is for these bloodlines, which compared-this is the point, Rick-compared with the global population, are not large in number. They've expanded out of the Near and Middle East, particularly, but other places, too. And by this manipulation of always being at the top of the pyramids-the pyramids of banking, the pyramids of politics, the pyramids of business, the pyramids of medicine, and all this stuff-they have created a situation in which they sit atop these compartmentalized pyramids and get the vast majority of humanity to advance their agenda without most of them even realizing there is an agenda being advanced.

This is the only way it could be done. This is why divide and rule is vital.

This is why the human herd, which, unfortunately, we've allowed ourselves to become, actually polices itself by making it a crime to be different. Anyone who expresses a different view, anyone who expresses a different lifestyle, most of the rest of the herd jump on them and say "You can't do that" and make life difficult for them, ridicule them, condemn them or whatever.

So what these bloodlines have done, sitting atop these pyramidal peaks, is actually to have manipulated the mass of the pyramid to fight itself, to war itself, to police itself-hence, divide and rule. It seems that they have had an agenda, which because it's focus is the lower fourth dimension, it's had a very different version of time to us-it can see down the three-dimensional timeline much further than we can-and it has actu

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Originally posted by Euler
I think my scrollwheel just melted.

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