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ashraf
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Euler,
May God help the victims of the hurricane. It was a trajedy by all the sense of the word. You are doing a noble deed by helping the victims from your church. Let us all remember we are brothers and sisters in humanity before we are brothers and sisters in faith.
Let us all focus on helping the needy and combatting poverty instead of spending billions of dollars to create more misery in the world.
You can not become free by accepting to be occupied
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Fri Sep 09, 2005 7:52 am |
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ashraf
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quote:
Originally posted by Rolo
Who spends billions to create misery? 'daheck did that come from?
How about the US government and its war on Iraq?
You can not become free by accepting to be occupied
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Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:01 pm |
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Rolo
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quote:
Originally posted by sarah
Rolo, you were being baited..and u just nibbled. *LOL*
Yeah...I was hungry. 
quote:
Originally posted by ashraf
quote:
Originally posted by Rolo
Who spends billions to create misery? 'daheck did that come from?
How about the US government and its war on Iraq?
Oh...daym...busted. Yeah...we totally wanted to risk our lives and spend billions just to make SURE that the people under Saddam's tyranny were TRULY miserable.
It's not working, though, 'cos all that dancing in the streets during the election showed that OPERATION KICK'EM-WHEN-THEY'RE-DOWN is, indeed, a miserable failure.
"Expect me when you see me."
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Sun Sep 11, 2005 1:43 pm |
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ashraf
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Yeah, Rolo
It was indeed a 'miserable failure'. People in the Middle East thought once upon a time - including me- that the US is the land of justice and freedom for all mankind, and thanks to your Bush that image was shattered like the houses demolished by Katrina!
And maybe we should refresh our memories a little bit and look at the events of Abu-Ghraib prison abuses, Guantanamo scandals..and understand what a 'MISERABLR FAILURE' means!
Have a nice day 
You can not become free by accepting to be occupied
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Sun Sep 11, 2005 4:44 pm |
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Rolo
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quote:
Originally posted by sarah
In any event, that is OT. This thread is about Hurricane Katrina Assistance.
Topic split so we can get to our regularly scheduled programming...
quote:
Originally posted by ashraf
... People in the Middle East thought once upon a time - including me- that the US is the land of justice and freedom for all mankind, and thanks to your Bush that image was shattered like the houses demolished by Katrina!
And maybe we should refresh our memories a little bit and look at the events of Abu-Ghraib prison abuses, Guantanamo scandals..and understand what a 'MISERABLR FAILURE' means!
By your logic, then, all middle-easterners are miserable terrorists and should be removed.
But we know that is wrong.
You are going to judge a whole country and a whole operation based on a few bad apples? You are going to forget the removal of a cruel, oppressive dictator and an establishment of a free Iraq and condemn the whole thing as a failure because of inappropriate prank-like cruelty to criminals?
Neither the appropriate nor the inappropriate behaviour of a peoples should be dismissed.
"Expect me when you see me."
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Sun Sep 11, 2005 6:24 pm |
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ashraf
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Rolo,
Maybe I did not make myself clear enough. I was referring to the US government which has been - unfortunately - elected by the American people. The "bad apples" you mentioned are the decision makers of your country. One of them happened to be George W. Bush. It is the responsibility of the American people to make sure that their leaders remain in course.
I am judging the policies of your government - specifically the foreign policies towards the Middle East - but not the whole country.
You can not become free by accepting to be occupied
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Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:39 am |
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Rolo
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No, you aren't, since the prisoner maltreatment is what you used to condemn Bush and that is not his policy.
"Expect me when you see me."
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Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:06 am |
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Euler
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Abu Ghraib was certainly Bush's policy. Come on! Where does the buck stop in this administration?
Bush is dangerously incompetent. It is proven by the constant needless loss of American life.
What the HELL are we doing in Iraq! It's STUPID and DANGEROUS! You people support needless death and destruction and it will come back to you.
It is anti-American to support the killing of Americans so we can install a puppet gov't in Iraq. You heard me. YOU Rolo and Sarah are TRAITORS.
Sleep well. Dream of blood gurgling from the thoats of dying 18 yo American infantry. How's that new constitution coming? Do we need to kill more young men?
"WORTH IT"
"MISSION ACCOMPLISHED"
Traitors. America-haters.
I guess that fits for death kult members like Sarah.
Profitting off of Iraq. Profitting off of Katrina.
I openly question your religion, spirituality, your morality, Sarah. Not that you care or even truly understand these concerns at all. As long as you get "paid" you glorious money, eh?
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Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:31 pm |
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Euler
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And thank you, Ashraf.
Thank you for your concern. It's more than I got from either of these bloodthirsty anti-American traitors here. And they supposedly live in America.
It is meaningful to me that the more humane voices of concern come from overseas. Here in America these folks are looking for a way to profit! And they howl defensively every time they encounter an opposing idea.
I guess it's funny. I sure do get angry though, when it occurs to me that these were the same people that questioned MY patriotism, MY spirituality, MY community service while I was tested in ways I never would have anticipated.
Unbelievable? Believe it. This is the neoconservative. Dark, traitorous, stupid, murderous, greedy, shallow, ignorant, dishonest. Hellbound.
I will never forget the traitors of my country. Never. Those that accused ME for thinking aloud. Those that called my church a cult over politics.
Go tell your people Ashraf. That Democracy is NOT a paradise. It only functions where there is healthy mutual respect. We in America can no longer make it work. We have lost our civility. The people that are pushing Democracy on Iraq are the ones stabbing their countrymen in the back for having independent thoughts.
I am going to be just fine. God save my enemies.
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Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:27 pm |
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ashraf
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quote:
Originally posted by Rolo
No, you aren't, since the prisoner maltreatment is what you used to condemn Bush and that is not his policy.
This is realy funny. If it was not his policy, then whose is it?...the Marshans?.
You can not become free by accepting to be occupied
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Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:42 pm |
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ashraf
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Thanks for your words, Euler.
Democracy is certainly not a paradise. People should have the right to choose how they want to govern themselves. Despite democracy is a need for the people for survival, the rule of the majority does not always lead to the desired outcome for a nation. That is where my religion differs with the westernized concept of democracy.
I agree with you 100% that mutual respect is essential for democracy. Thank you again for your words.
You can not become free by accepting to be occupied
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Tue Sep 13, 2005 4:53 pm |
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Rolo
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quote:
Originally posted by Euler
Abu Ghraib was certainly Bush's policy. Come on! Where does the buck stop in this administration?
The US subscribes to the Geneva Convention and the rules of armed conflict. It is contrary to Bush's policy. You should read the US National Security Strategy, then you will understand.
The Americans who violated that were held accountable for the dicgraceful behaviour that it was.
quote:
Originally posted by Euler
It is anti-American to support the killing of Americans so we can install a puppet gov't in Iraq. You heard me. YOU Rolo and Sarah are TRAITORS.
Sleep well. Dream of blood gurgling from the thoats of dying 18 yo American infantry. How's that new constitution coming? Do we need to kill more young men?
Ummm...I have been in Iraq...during the war...and Kuwait...even had the privilege of escorting my friends dead body home to his mother for a proper, respectful burial...one of those "young Americans", fighting to help a people we do not know to enjoy the freedoms that we enjoy and to secure our freedoms and our national security.
quote:
Originally posted by Euler
Traitors. America-haters.
You, Euler, enjoy your freedom to speak your grievances against the American government, for that is a freedom paid for by said "young Americans"...hell..burn the flag if you want to, the flag I have saluted countless times, the flag over my friend's coffin--although I would hold your ideas in contempt, I will support and defend your freedom to express them, even while you call me a traitor.
quote:
Originally posted by Euler
I guess that fits for death kult members like Sarah.
Rolo with Moderator hat: ad hominem foul. Watch the personal attacks and name-calling. It will not be tolerated. Attack the person's argument, not the person.
Rolo the regular dude: If one resorts to personal insults in an argument, then I assume one has no logical foundation for one's argument and therefore one must be full of bunk and hence, loses the argument. i.e. "I Win!"
quote:
Originally posted by Euler
Profitting off of Katrina.
You have to understand how the free market economy works; this is NOT profitting off of someone else's misery.
--In fact, President Bush enacted policy to stop price-gouging as soon as it started. Jeb Bush made that illegal in Florida (hurricane alley) a long time ago.--
Lots of people need homes, supplies, and all the stuff they had before, plus stuff to prevent this from happening again. Companies do this. They make things happen. How do they make things happen? Investors. Businesses & Investors work together to find opportunites to meet a need and make a living.
If you want us to feel guilty for being 'rich'...sorry...it won't work...I EARNED what I have and I do share it with the less fortunate...but, Oh, you seem to overlook the fact that Sarah posted a link to a web page so everyone here can help the Katrina recovery efforts. Have you, Euler, given to help the victims of Katrina? (besides moral high-horse rants, that is)
I'll be nice and warn you before you step in more doo-doo: I have been a victim of a hurricane myself and I happen to, as an extra, work for a charitible organisation that helps Katrina victims as well as other charities. One last thing: I was disappointed that you didn't question my morality and spirituality...for mine is rooted in Christ...yup, Ima Bible-thumper. Watch where you step! 
"Expect me when you see me."
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Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:16 am |
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Rolo
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quote:
Originally posted by ashraf
I agree with you 100% that mutual respect is essential for democracy.
Mutual respect is essential (or should be) in everything.
America, however, is NOT a democracy; it is a Federal Republic.
"Expect me when you see me."
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Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:22 am |
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Euler
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If my challenge was to bear this gracefully, I failed. I apologize for the outburst.
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Abu Ghraib was a failure of leadership. You do not put rookies in those positions and leave them the keys without some sort of oversight. The leadership was jolted awake by the circulating jpgs attached in emails, burned on CDs. Most pretended not to know until it was shown in court or published in the press. THAT disconnect is the Bush trademark. Bad news does NOT flow upriver in this administration. Incompetence of leadership DOES flow downriver in this administration.
The sacrificial scapegoats of Abu Ghraib deserved better. The leadership sent in too few, these few were undertrained and over stressed and under-instructed. If you've been to Iraq, you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. Those early days were a tragedy of errors.
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I hope you grew from your experiences in Iraq. I'm glad you are healthy. Their gov't is NOT my concern. I wish them the best, but it is NO BUSINESS of my gov't. It is a distraction from nat'l security. It is an arrogant fools errand.
Again: Iraq is not an AMERICAN concern. Getting OBL is! Hello?
Let Iraqis be free to govern themselves or fail! Until they have the freedom to fail, they will not unite. While we prop them up, they have no compelling incentive to unite. How's that constitution coming? THAT's what I'm talking about!
If Iraq sent a desperate Ben Franklin to America to show us their advanced sciences and convince us that they will shepherd Democracy with wisdom and grace, then by all means let's send aid. But that's not what happened. The course you support is called Nation Building and it ALWAYS hurts everyone and it ALWAYS fails. It is what Bush II swore NOT to do. Another broken promise.
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Haha. The traitor thing. I lost my composure. I guess shit flies BOTH ways now. How does it feel? Not so fun when YOU are the witch on the stake. LOL
Rolo, I'm not faulting your profit drive or criticizing your spirituality. Those things are none of my business. You have the large benefit of my doubt. You have shown decency and respect. Sarah has not. She gets as she gives.
I don't even think she's a "she". I think it's a dude hiding behind a woman's false id.
I'm not going to air my hurricane contributions here because that's arrogant and unnecessary.
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Message to all who consider themselves neocons.
If you have not decried the loss of civility of your party, YOU personally have severed our national bond. You are either FOR America or AGAINST America. (sound familiar?) Since you don't seem to mind this headlong plunge into rage, hysteria and fear, I assume you support it.
I have mourned the decay long enough.
By advocating waste and blood and death in exchange for NO GAIN for America, NO SECURITY for America, I can only speculate that you encourage our enemies. You embolden those who hate America. You give them land to be free. You give them safe harbor. You defend the LIES that you used to give all the above to our enemies.
What have I done? I have expressed independent thought. Hang me as a traitor, then. For "emboldening" the "tursts". What have YOU done?
The idea that we can waltz into a fractured land of 27Million with a mere 200,000 troops and shock and awe them into delirious submission with a fireworks display will go down as the stupidest military move in the history of humanity. It's up there with Custer's Last Stand.
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Wed Sep 14, 2005 5:43 pm |
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ScottRigot
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Also, there is a Missing Persons hotline that is really helping out down there:
The "Katrina Missing Persons Hotline" (1-888-544-5475) is operating from 8:00am ET to 12:00 midnight ET, 7 days per week.
It is staffed by 40 former law enforcement members of NCMEC's Team ADAM and Project ALERT.
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Wed Sep 14, 2005 8:44 pm |
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