| Bush advocates Police State response to Virus |
|
|
|
|
|
Euler
Senior Member
Cash: $ 76.16
Posts: 404
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
|
Kiaser, I hope, for your sake, that natural disaster never impacts your life, or those of your loved ones.
I see now what little regard you have for human life. Guess those wheelchair bound seniors deserved death by drowning as punishment for their liberal ways. I got ya number now, Kiaser.
I see now why you support more violence in the ME.
I will never understand you violent extremist neocons.
I am a Conservative and I lament the NASCAR style-change that has accompanied the neocon coup of the GOP.
Bush I had it right. Attract support, Hit hard, Accomplish mission, get OUT.
|
Fri Aug 25, 2006 7:32 pm |
|
|
Kiaser
Senior Member
Cash: $ 43.05
Posts: 209
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
|
|
 |
|
Well, I believe what I believe because if voting fails, politicians fail, reasoning and debate fails, and all other efforts fail that violence is the final and only way to solve a problem. I don't advocate violence first, but I respect that after everything has been exhausted it is the only tried and true method to make changes. Just like I said, try to reason with an Islamic facist... You'll be trying to convince him why he should be more lenient while he is beheading you. To completely disregard violence as an option is to let anyone who is willing to use violence become your master. And since the beginning of time it is violence that has shaped your existence is some way shape or form.
quote:
Originally posted by Euler
Kiaser, I hope, for your sake, that natural disaster never impacts your life, or those of your loved ones.
I see now what little regard you have for human life. Guess those wheelchair bound seniors deserved death by drowning as punishment for their liberal ways. I got ya number now, Kiaser.
If you wanna pick and choose the people I'm talking about why don't you reference to who I've only mentioned, which are the people completely capable of up and moving their butts outta harms way but choose not to do so because "the government" will help them if they don't. But, no, you pick a situation complete outside of what I've referenced... Nice try but anyone can see that I never said anything about the incapable people. But if you want to talk about those seniors without capabilities then let's go there NOW. Where were the people that were supposed to take care of them? Where were the policies that should have been already in order and put in place by the organization paid to take care of them? What about local authorities, local disaster organizations, or anyone else responsible for the well being of others in that specific area? For the capable, there's no one to blame. For the incapable, there are plenty of others to hold accountable instead of immediately holding the president largely at fault. What's the presidents job? To manage the armed forces and foreign policies. "Hmmmm, my sandwich was made with mayonnaise instead of mustard the other day, I'm pissed that bush didn't put a policy into place to prevent such a thing! Screw complaining to the business manager, I'm going to the highest level!".
quote:
Originally posted by Euler
I see now why you support more violence in the ME.
Tell me then, from centuries long of hate, inability to compromise, and incapability of peace in that region, what else is gonna make a change over there? Politics have failed the middle eastern people as have peace treaties. The only reason that entire region has been unstable for so long are two reasons. First because religious dogma has been abused in nearly every act of violence or policy, and you can argue with another about their countries policy but when it's a policy based on religion you get people to fight and die for that. And you aren't gonna get people to stop fighting for a religious belief. But according to me violence should change everything, right? Well, it does and it will, however in that region they've grown tough enough to withstand the violence so far so it will take a large scale attack or weapon to do the trick. Wonder why it's top priority for other countries in that region to obtain nuclear weaponry? Now you know.
Hell, take Japan for example in world war 2. What we faced in the coming pacific war with land invasion of japan and it's islands was much worse than the entire previous years of the war. We were facing potential human losses far beyond anything imaginable, as America had never been in a war against an enemy that had such a crazy policy for homeland defense and included women and children fighting. So, I'm not saying it's an easy choice or something that either way you can still be classified as "insensitive" or not considering human life, but I'd have to say that using the atom bomb back then was a pretty damn good choice. Same with the middle east, keep things up the way they are and it's gonna stay that way for another 10, 20, or 30 centuries.
quote:
Originally posted by Euler
I am a Conservative and I lament the NASCAR style-change that has accompanied the neocon coup of the GOP.
Bush I had it right. Attract support, Hit hard, Accomplish mission, get OUT.
And rightly so, some things shouldn't be pushed so quickly through any political forum. But on the other hand, some things should. It's called action and sometimes it's needed to make appropriate changes within a timeframe that can actually make a difference to peoples lives.
|
|
Fri Aug 25, 2006 11:49 pm |
|
|
Euler
Senior Member
Cash: $ 76.16
Posts: 404
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
|
|
|
|
Blanco ain't my governor. Nagin ain't my mayor. I could critique their performance, but to be honest, I've only been paying attention to them AFTER THE FACT. Like you. If you are just spectator-bashing that's pretty much useless whining.
If you vote in those precincts, I'm all ears.
If you don't, I suggest that you take a cold hard look at YOUR local authorities and ask yourself how you might fare should fate test their plans.
Bush is in my chain of authority. So is DHS and FEMA. Therefore, it is my civic duty to analyze and critique their performance.
The fact remains that while people died of dehydration, drowning, sickness, lack of care, Bush stayed on vacation. FIVE DAYS LATER, when the federal response began, Bush instituted a policy called "ZERO TOLERANCE".
He didn't save the first survivor.
He didn't bring the first jug of water.
Instead, he packed Humvees with rifle-toting teenagers to shoot and kill "looters" of water damaged plasma TVs. Meanwhile, the Rovian Spin Macvhine went into high gear, character assasinating local authorities in a fierce us-or-them false choice pissmatch.
That's what the Neocons are good for. Blaming the victim. So when unexpected disaster happens in YOUR area while Neocons are festering in the capitol, expect to fight them for your survival.
Given that the Virus Quarantine comments were given as Bush was coming off vacation AGAIN, the very month following Katrina, I think you can see the connection here.
Count on Neocons to get people killed and then demonize the victims with unrivalled vitriol and shrill hatred.
|
|
Mon Aug 28, 2006 8:10 pm |
|
|
coaster
Senior Advisor
Cash: $ 1355.60
Posts: 6675
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Location: Wisconsin
|
Maybe the lesson to be learned is to beware Bush coming back from a vacation. 
~Tim~
Eye Candy : Why Whimsy
|
|
Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:06 pm |
|
|
Euler
Senior Member
Cash: $ 76.16
Posts: 404
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
|
LOL
|
|
Mon Aug 28, 2006 10:27 pm |
|
|
Kiaser
Senior Member
Cash: $ 43.05
Posts: 209
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
|
quote:
Originally posted by coaster
Maybe the lesson to be learned is to beware Bush coming back from a vacation.
LOL!!
|
|
Mon Aug 28, 2006 11:42 pm |
|
|
Kiaser
Senior Member
Cash: $ 43.05
Posts: 209
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
|
|
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Euler
Blanco ain't my governor. Nagin ain't my mayor. I could critique their performance, but to be honest, I've only been paying attention to them AFTER THE FACT. Like you. If you are just spectator-bashing that's pretty much useless whining.
If you vote in those precincts, I'm all ears.
If you don't, I suggest that you take a cold hard look at YOUR local authorities and ask yourself how you might fare should fate test their plans.
Well, considering a forewarned disaster such as a hurricane my local authorities wouldn't have much impact on me as I would've left the area. Considering Katrina specifically, the only thing I and my local authorities had to deal with was the rush of people from Louisiana coming all at once (Ah, the memories of those people using their relief money given by the government to pay for strip club outings at our local strip club, new designer $1000 purses at our valley view mall, and threatening lawsuits to waitresses at very expensive restaurants when they were asked to pay for their food of which they replied "we are Katrina victims, we don't pay for our food). But yes, I agree that the only people to really have any voice on the subject were the people affected in that state (although I guarantee you there are hundreds of thousands of people that were affected that DIDN'T blame the government and know damn well that a lot of the crap the happened was out of human ignorance and arrogance).
quote:
Originally posted by Euler
Bush is in my chain of authority. So is DHS and FEMA. Therefore, it is my civic duty to analyze and critique their performance.
There's more productive ways and avenues to take on helping shape authoritive policy than bash and blame the highest profile authority (who as I understand his main duty towards the United States is the commander of the armed forces and foreign policies). There's petitioning to authorities on local, statewide, and federal levels. There's actually getting involved in the political responsibilities yourself and running for certain offices or even just becoming a consultant on various issues. There's also starting up your own lobby.
I've noticed that since the media has turned news into more of an entertainment network than just the reporting of cold hard facts that there is a massive train of thought with the majority of citizens seem to believe. And that thought is that if you are an American citizen it is your utmost duty to have an opinion and side for absolutely every issue you and the country are presented with. This is ridiculous to me. NO ONE can know ALL the facts about every issue, especially in politics. Hell, even politicians with consultants, experts, and entire cabinets get incorrect or insufficient research and facts. Just cause the media presents every single issue they can scrounge up with limited and sometimes biased facts, doesn't mean you have to have an opinion on it. In actuality, it's just plain irresponsible to make judgements and voice them without having specific and sometimes first hand knowledge of the issue (just as we agree that no one should be able to bitch about Katrina and the authoritive action besides the people affected, and in that event it should be from the entire count of people affected and not the people specifically with an opinion that "makes good news broadcast").
quote:
Originally posted by Euler
The fact remains that while people died of dehydration, drowning, sickness, lack of care, Bush stayed on vacation. FIVE DAYS LATER, when the federal response began, Bush instituted a policy called "ZERO TOLERANCE".
He didn't save the first survivor.
He didn't bring the first jug of water.
So I'm gonna try to compare with my experience as a small business owner this situation. I go on vacation from my business. I have hired and trained employees and a manager to do all the duties that the business requires including substantial unlikely occurences. I also have seen the employees and manager handle such tasks in the past appropriately. Shouldn't I feel confident that things are covered? Yes I should. If things go awry, then it isn't out of lack of preparation or action it's because of failure on multiple levels of the people put into place to handle it (FEMA, local authorities, etc). As I understand it, things ARE being changed now to correct some of these issues. Too late, you say? It's real easy to stand back after the fact and place blame and say what they SHOULD have done, but that's not how to world works. I'm sure things were misconstrued, misinformed, mishandled, and misreported for that entire event. Our country may be a superpower in the world, but we don't have superabilities like superman to be able to have all information provided immediately as it happens and slow down time so all options and priorities can be looked at in-depth. Choices are made and action is taken with the information provided, and in doing so mistakes and accidents WILL happen. The real fools paradise is believing there is always a good side of every situation. To think that our government, much less Bush himself, has the ability to micro manage every course of action and organization/person involved in every situation is just insane.
quote:
Originally posted by Euler
That's what the Neocons are good for. Blaming the victim. So when unexpected disaster happens in YOUR area while Neocons are festering in the capitol, expect to fight them for your survival.
Given that the Virus Quarantine comments were given as Bush was coming off vacation AGAIN, the very month following Katrina, I think you can see the connection here.
Count on Neocons to get people killed and then demonize the victims with unrivalled vitriol and shrill hatred.
There's very little in this world that is black and white. You seem to label others opinions and policies as evil, and blanket their entire mindset and policies with words such as "neocon" and "hatred", instead of looking at exactly why certain choices are made (or at least not judging the actions until you have a full understanding of both sides). I understand that there are situations in this world where no matter what you choose you will still lose and fail, there is no "winning" choice. Of course like you, I wish this wasn't the case, but I find it better to acknowledge the fact that expectations will not be met and bad things will happen (both before an event and during the aftermath in response). That way at least compromises and sacrifices can be made so that timely action can become possible. One persons answer to something is another persons inconceivable thought, but that's what makes our struggle in humanity so great.
|
|
Tue Aug 29, 2006 12:38 am |
|
|
coaster
Senior Advisor
Cash: $ 1355.60
Posts: 6675
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Location: Wisconsin
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaser
the media has turned news into more of an entertainment network
If you want to hear something scary: on another of the boards I'm on someone posted a poll asking where people got most of their news. The highest percentage got their news from late night talk shows.  Imagine Leno or Letterman as trusted sources for most of your news. 
~Tim~
Eye Candy : Why Whimsy
|
|
Tue Aug 29, 2006 1:33 am |
|
|
Kiaser
Senior Member
Cash: $ 43.05
Posts: 209
Joined: 12 Apr 2006
|
|
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by coaster
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaser
the media has turned news into more of an entertainment network
If you want to hear something scary: on another of the boards I'm on someone posted a poll asking where people got most of their news. The highest percentage got their news from late night talk shows. Imagine Leno or Letterman as trusted sources for most of your news.
Are you kidding, that's the only way I can watch news without being disgusted. At least I get a chuckle out of it while also just being able to laugh about the sarcasm in what the late night shows portray. The funny thing is that late night portrays it light heartedly and just to poke fun, but the regular news shows actually say nearly the same thing as late night but instead are completely serious and hateful.
I swear not but two months ago I was watching some of the regular bush bashing on CNN or MSNBC or something like that... Out of 4 stories shown the first three hardly had any content or actual story, but instead focused on how the bush administration is/isn't doing things about it. The LAST story was something completely detached from politics, something about a medical condition of conjoined twins. I shat you not, at the end of the last story about the twins the newscasters last words were, "and no official response from bush administration on their take of the twins status",
|
|
Tue Aug 29, 2006 2:43 am |
|
|
ashraf
Preferred Member
Cash: $ 27.69
Posts: 141
Joined: 24 May 2005
Location: The Middle East
|
quote:
Originally posted by coaster
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaser
the media has turned news into more of an entertainment network
If you want to hear something scary: on another of the boards I'm on someone posted a poll asking where people got most of their news. The highest percentage got their news from late night talk shows. Imagine Leno or Letterman as trusted sources for most of your news.
That is certainly horrifying!
I pray that none of those would become a US president one day!
You can not become free by accepting to be occupied
|
|
Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:48 am |
|
|
Euler
Senior Member
Cash: $ 76.16
Posts: 404
Joined: 06 Nov 2003
|
|
|
|
Don't pretend that 1700 people didn't just die because there WAS NO EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT OF ANY KIND. that's half a 9/11 right there.
You seem to want to talk about business and aftermath, and yes there is a fascinating conversation there to have which is mostly unrelated to Bush.
But I'm talking about Emergency response. Search and rescue. Potable water delivery. I'm talking about 1500 people dying because FEMA couldn't decide to get motivated. Just like Bush stayed on vacation until day four. Why did it take FIVE DAYS for FEMA to lift the first pinky finger?
And you ask me to believe that this government can respond to terror? Oh, pshyeah.
Look, you can put all your eggs in that Fed basket. I don't trust them. DHS is pure pork barrel politics. It's not just speculation. They MISSED their audition last year. Totally MISSED it. How can you not be outraged at the largest bureaucracy to ever exist on the face of the planet - and it won't perform its mission?
If DHS/FEMA fails to get your goat, then I am the conservative here and you are plainly NOT. I say FEMA and DHS need to be liquidated and turned into a First responder organization. Why? Because THAT'S where people died. It takes bravery, competence and humanity to save people.
And that's really all I'm asking for - some sort of humanity in gov't. Enough humanity to care enough to rescue an old person when they are stranded on a rooftop.
Not just spin endlessly, shifting blame - even blaming the stupid liberal old fool who deserved DEATH by dehydration on his OWN ROOF because he is so LIBERAL Jesus Christ hates his guts. That's what neocons are saying. That the old dead fool expected the Gov't to save his life and for that, he got what he deserved.
Know what? It's UnAmerican to turn your backs on Americans in life or death situations.
Read FEMA's mission sometime at fema.gov. See for yourself what they refused to do. You're either comfy with that or ya ain't.
|
|
Tue Aug 29, 2006 10:35 pm |
|
|
avenger
Contributing Member
Cash: $ 8.55
Posts: 42
Joined: 06 Nov 2005
Location: Australia.
|
| 1 thing for sure. |
|
|
hi to all,
one thing is for sure,
"there is no reality,only perception"
your reality is what you "perceive" it to be.
yes,reality is a "construct" you make it up
all by yourself.there is nothing "realistic"
about it.
i wonder how many different "realities"
there are?
many thanks,
jim.
"Two days ago i saw a vehicle that'll haul that tanker.You wana get outa here,you talk to me"
|
|
Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:33 am |
|
|
coaster
Senior Advisor
Cash: $ 1355.60
Posts: 6675
Joined: 11 Oct 2005
Location: Wisconsin
|
| Re: 1 thing for sure. |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by avenger
i wonder how many different "realities"
there are?
How many people on the planet? Six billion some?
~Tim~
Eye Candy : Why Whimsy
|
|
Fri Sep 01, 2006 1:45 am |
|
|
LottomagicZ4941
Senior Member
Cash: $ 3.31
Posts: 2488
Joined: 02 Dec 2004
Location: Earth
|
| Re: 1 thing for sure. |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by coaster
quote:
Originally posted by avenger
i wonder how many different "realities"
there are?
How many people on the planet? Six billion some?
Well sometimes we get a reality check. Some say the holicost(sp) didn't happen. That doesn't change the reality for the people that were there. Well, then agian I could see them getting upset at some people claiming that the evil event didn't happen. Hitler thought he could get away with killing the Jews because the world forgot about what happened to the Armanians so easly.
There has been some ranting against GW and I don't think he is that bad. He means well. But some of his stuff is dangerous. Just because GW wouldn't use servalance to malice doesn't mean that other leaders wouldn't.
"Hiding in the sun like a loaded gun--reality" I think these are DP lyrics or did I just make that up?
Wish I would have kept the artical but the Economist stated that more gypsies were killed then Jews in WWII. Farmers were willing to kill gypsies but were not willing to kill Jews thus Hitler had to build concentration camps.
My Current Favorite Marketing Tool. If you like text adverts you will like it
Save 25% off some versions of Turbo Tax some say it's a CPA in a CPU
|
|
Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:17 pm |
|
|
El Presidente
Full Member
Cash: $ 13.85
Posts: 69
Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Location: Colorado
|
| Back on Topic? |
|
|
Here is the press release from GHWB, missed the part about the prison camps. Lets try and get some prospective by reading some background information.
I also find it ironic that Bush is being held accountable for a local disaster in New Orleans and is now being critiqued for trying to plan ahead to prevent a potential disaster that is several orders of magnitude greater.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2005/11/20051101-1.html
Here is some information from www.pandemicflu.gov
"Containing Outbreaks
The most effective way to protect the American population is to contain an outbreak beyond the borders of the U.S. While we work to prevent a pandemic from reaching our shores, we recognize that slowing or limiting the spread of the outbreak is a more realistic outcome and can save many lives. In support of our containment strategy, we will:
Work through the International Partnership to develop a coalition of strong partners to coordinate actions to limit the spread of a virus with pandemic potential beyond the location where it is first recognized in order to protect U.S. interests abroad.
Where appropriate, offer and coordinate assistance from the United States and other members of the International Partnership.
Encourage all levels of government, domestically and globally, to take appropriate and lawful action to contain an outbreak within the borders of their community, province, state or nation.
Where appropriate, use governmental authorities to limit non-essential movement of people, goods and services into and out of areas where an outbreak occurs.
Provide guidance to all levels of government on the range of options for infection-control and containment, including those circumstances where social distancing measures, limitations on gatherings, or quarantine authority may be an appropriate public health intervention.
Emphasize the roles and responsibilities of the individual in preventing the spread of an outbreak, and the risk to others if infection-control practices are not followed.
Provide guidance for states, localities and industry on best practices to prevent the spread of avian influenza in commercial, domestic and wild birds, and other animals."
"States and Localities
Our communities are on the front lines of a pandemic and will face many challenges in maintaining continuity of society in the face of widespread illness and increased demand on most essential government services. State and local responsibilities include the following:
Ensuring that all reasonable measures are taken to limit the spread of an outbreak within and beyond the community’s borders.
Establishing comprehensive and credible preparedness and response plans that are exercised on a regular basis.
Integrating non-health entities in the planning for a pandemic, including law enforcement, utilities, city services and political leadership.
Establishing state and community-based stockpiles and distribution systems to support a comprehensive pandemic response.
Identifying key spokespersons for the community, ensuring that they are educated in risk communication, and have coordinated crisis communications plans.
Providing public education campaigns on pandemic influenza and public and private interventions. "
Could this be abused? It seems likely some local governments will go overboard during the initial implementations of any plan. It wouldn't be the first time. Personally I am more worried about the population taking matters into their own hands.
Bush's government has been very forthcoming on what steps they are trying to make in this senerio. After reading the information provided, it seems perfectly reasonable.
I learn by talking. Most agree I never stop learning.
|
|
Sat Sep 02, 2006 5:06 pm |
|
|
|
